Uzyte bez uzasadnienia i nie na temat, ujawnia twoje sklonnosci do spekulacji i gjecia filozofii na własne potrzeby.

Prosba była jasna chcesz pisac cos w jezyku obcym dodaj tłumaczenie nie dodasz to sie licz ze zostanie usuniete. Nie ma co spekulowac. Chcesz funkcjonowac na tym forum zaakceptuj zasady, działajac wbrew zasada bedziesz sie musiał liczyc z konsekfencjami.

Ostrzeżenie było

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"...jesli chcesz zbudowac statek, nie każ ludziom zbierać drewna, ale obudź w nich tesknotę za Oceanem.."

Zaiste ostrzeżenie było

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Authentic & Traditional Jyotish: http://rohinaa.com

wybaczcie kochani,ale dzieki łasce kryszny przeoczylem Madhavo ostatni post w wydaniu tej jakze wulgarnej i pyszalkowatej osoby,bez kszty dobrego smaku.
No gdybym ja takią odp dostal to chyba pobiegl bym do miejsca jego pobytu i skrucil go o jezyk i zrobil mu rekawice betonowe by juz nigdy nie klikal klawiaturą.
Kiedy Sri Caitanya szedl ulicami Varanasi i intonowal , mayawadi's krytykowali go ,a Prabhupada w komentarzu napisal ,ze jest takie przyslowie w bengali ...kiedy karawana jedzie przez wies psy szczekają,coz mozna zrobic.
Wiec zaiste ostrzezenie i zapowiedzi,odnosnie psich narodzin są juz przesądzone.
Kto zniewaza Bhakte nie moze intonowac Hare Kryszna.
a poza tym w indiach spotkalem tylu braminow ktorzy rzuli panMasale i gadali pierdoly i to tak kocopolowate ze az uszy puchly.
Wybaczcie mi mimo iz temat ten jest zamkniety od dawna,to niestety tak mną tąpnely te pokazy tamo guny ze az zarazilem sie nastrojem i boje sie jechac na spotkanie z HH Jayapataką Swamim bo jak spotkam tegoz smialka,(ktorego imienia nawet niechce wspominac,by sie nie zanieczyszczac) nie pozostane bierny.
Obrazanie mnie to pestka,ale K.sambhande to raz ,a dwa Madhave to jest zaduzo.
a sklonnosc do klotni zdradza gune w jakiej ktos przebywa i ktora go kreci. wiec jest to guna mleca i Yavana.jak to jest ze ktos bierze od Srila Prabhupada jakis kawalek nauk ,jak np,ze mozesz stac sie braminem przestrzegając takiego i takiego standardu ,zdobywając takie to a takie cechy charakteru,nie musisz sie rodzic w kascie Braminow.
a z drogiej strony przyjmowanie Czegos co powiedzial jakis tam Bramin???shivaita ,(jesli kto kolwiek w indiach ,czy uczelniach podpiera sie czyim kolwiek punktem filozoficznym z czystej zasady etykiety mowi o zrodle z jakiej Gotry pochodzi ten Bramin jak ma na imie on czy jego ojciec )gdzie filozofje są wogole rozne. To jest przepiekny pokaz spekulacji umyslowej. Kiedys bhaktividyapurna swami powiedzial.Kiedy bhakta czasem złamie zasade regolującą ,wowczas kryszna przymknie na to oko,ale jesli ktos spekuluje i robi wypaczenia filozoficzne to ciezko juz takiej osobie kontynuowac bhakti.
a co dopiero kiedy w parze z tym idzie zniewazanie Bhaktow.Nie no jak czytam takie texty jak wyrzej to bardziej zaczynam czuc atrakcje do kalki Avatara niz Pana Gaurangi. Panie chron mnie

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W tym wieku kłótni i hipokryzjiNiema innej drogi niema innej drogi niema innej drogi ,jak Intonowanie swietych imion Pana.Hare Kryszna i Rama:-)

Dziekuje za inspiracje. Pozwole sobie podzielic sie z Wami jedna ralizacja. Kiedyś dzieki łasce Mojego Mistrza Duchowego miałem sposobność chodzic w stroju Vaisnawa przez dwa lata. Przez ten okres nie zdjołem go ani razu. W tym czasie podruzowałem po Polsce sam pociągiem, odwiedzałem różne instytucje, odwiedzałem rodzinę, brałem udział w świetach rodzinnych i bardzo wiele rozmawiałem z ludzmi. To było wspaniałe. Dawało mi to wielki pole do nauczania o Krysznie. Oczywiście wykonywanie podstawowych czynności w Świadomości Kryszny takich jak gotowanie, wielbienie Bóst itp było nektarem.
Troche później pojechałem również do Londynu na zaproszenie Mahadyutiego Prabhu. Słyszałem jak bardzo cieżko jest przejść przez bióre emigracyjne w Angli. Założyłem więc moje M65, kurtkę tego samego typu, dokerke i czarny golf US Army. W pewnej chwili pan z bióra Emigracyjnego uśmiechnoł sie do mnie i powiedział, Hari Boll dlaczego ukrywasz że jesteś bhakta kryszny? Ja uwielbiam Was
To mi wystarczyło. Od tego czasu zawze jak jechałem do UK jechałem tylko w Dhoti.
Żałuje tylko że moja praca nie pozwala mi na to aby chodzić do niej w Dhoti.
Pokloniki

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Zawsze pamiętaj o Krysznie, nigdy o nim nie zapomnij

Oj Pamietam te czasy i z nostalgią wyczekiwalem kiedy K.Sambhanda Pr przyjedzie do govindy(walbrzyskiegoosrodka H.K.)
zawsze kiedy przyjezdzales miales jakies historie o guru,a na dodatek w gobindzie tworzyles jakies karobowe czekolady i ofjarowales je swemy Panu Nrsimhadevie.
A Twoj styl chodzenia w dhoti bardzo mnie inspirowal,uwielbialem po naszych porannych programach sobotnich odprowadzac cie prawie pod dom rodzicow,uwielbialem jak ludzie patrzyli na ciebie gdy szedles w dhoti,a ja czulem sie dumny ze moge isc z Tobą. To bardzo wczesne chwile mojej swiadomosci Kryszny,ale jakze za nimi tesknie. Gdzies zapodzial sie moj "dzieciecy" entuzjazm i swego rodzaju naiwnosc,ktora sprawialaze w imie Kryszny i Guru bylem w stanie na ulicy sprzedawac duzo ksiązek i praktycznie przenosic Gory.Nie wątpliwie Twoje chodzenie w dhoti bylo jedną jakze wazną cegielką mojego fundamentu swiadomosci Kryszny.
Mysle K.ambhando ze nadejdą jeszcze te czasy jak wszyscy bedziemy dumnie chodzic po ulicach,do pracy,itp.....

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W tym wieku kłótni i hipokryzjiNiema innej drogi niema innej drogi niema innej drogi ,jak Intonowanie swietych imion Pana.Hare Kryszna i Rama:-)

Przepraszam, ze odswiezam stary watek, ale wlasnie ukazal sie artykul Hari-sauriego Prabhu na dandavats, ktory jest poswiecony dokladnie temu zagadnieniu. Pewien bhakta listownie zapytal HSP wlasnie o to, jak to jest z noszeniem dhoti i sari, poniewaz slyszal rozne dyskusje na ten temat negujace waznosc tego stroju, ale sam nie znajdowal odpowiednich argumentow jako przeciwwage w tej dyskuji. Prosil wiec Hari-sauriego P. o to, aby wypowiedzial sie na ten temat, jako ze byl przez dlugi czas bliskim sluga Srila Prabhupada i na pewno znal dobrze zdanie Srila Prabhupada na ten temat. HSP odpowiada dosyc szczegolowo na to pytanie, powolujac sie na rozne cytaty z pism sw., na listy Prabhupada itp. Warto przeczytac. Polecam Przepraszam, ze nie przetlumaczylam, ale moze ktos inny choc fragmenty przetlumaczy?


The value of wearing saris and dhotis in the execution of our devotional activities

By Hari-sauri dasa

Dear Hari Sauri Prabhu

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada

Recently I was involved in a conversation with several devotees regarding vaisnava clothes. Some of them were proponing the idea that sari and dhoti are actually not vaisnava clothes that devotees in spiritual world wear, giving as evidence pictures made by Sharma. Others were saying that Srila Prabhupada didn’t insist on vaisnava clothes but his western disciples wanted to be like him, therefore they were pushing this way of dressing. Some of the ideas expressed were that we do not actually need such clothes for cooking for the Deities or doing some other services, and what to speak about dressing like that in the street.

Some of the devotees involved in the conversation developed their ideas after the visit of one of your Godbrothers who had not been speaking in favour of dressing in sari and dhoti.

Since you have spent lot of time with Srila Prabhupada and have carefully noted down his attitudes in many situations, could you please enlighten me about this topic by giving his verdict in this situation? Personally I always thought vaisnava clothes to be significant part of our process of becoming Krsna conscious but in the conversation with the abbove mentioned devotees I could not find the right arguments to convince them in the importance of this dress. Therefore I beg you to clear my doubts in this regard.

Thank you for your text inquiring about the value of wearing saris and dhotis in the execution of our devotional activities.

I have heard a little of this argument before but only in brief, so I will try to answer in a general sense but please excuse me if I do not cover all the points you have encountered.

Its a fact that devotional life, in its essence, is not dependent on anything external. Surely our aim is to simply purify our existence by chanting of the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and thus go back to Godhead. Chanting can be done in any place, time or circumstance-there are no hard and fast rules. I agree with this, if this is the argument.

However since we are not situated on the platform of pure devotional service and we are not absorbed in the holy name to the exclusion of all things external, we have to be careful how we apply this in practice.

Here the question is about dress. According to this argument, whatever we wear is not essential. As you have said: “Some of the ideas expressed were that we do not actually need such clothes for cooking for the Deities or doing some other services, and what to speak about dressing like that in the street.”

If dress is not essential, then presumably one can wear whatever one likes. How far do we want to take this? Can a woman do arati wearing a tight skirt six inches above her knees and glitter lipstick and a bra? Can a man wear board shorts while dressing the deities? Or just his kaupin while he cooks for the Lord in the kitchen? Can he dye his hair purple and green and mold it into fifteen centimeter long spikes while at the same time give Srimad Bhagavatam class; or simply never cut it, matting it in cow dung until it hangs down to his ankles as some sadhus in India do.

Some exalted sadhus (and some not so exalted) wear nothing at all. Vamsidas Babaji used to wander naked because he was so absorbed in Krsna’s holy names. Sukadeva Goswami was also doing the same thing. If someone wants to emulate that standard, is there anything wrong with that?

Clearly there has to be some standard otherwise the whole process becomes absurd. My proposal is that we should follow Srila Prabhupada’s standards and not try to change them. Whatever was established by His Divine Grace should be accepted by us as being the best way to sustain our spiritual lives.

As far as dhotis and saris are concerned, you have said that some say that the inhabitants of Goloka Vrndavan don’t wear them. Personally I don’t know. It would be good for someone to research this. I do know that in Srila Prabhupada’s translation of Srimad Bhagavatam he refers repeatedly to Mohini-murti as wearing a sari. Also in SB 10.9.3 he describes Mother Yasoda thus: “Dressed in a saffron-yellow sari, with a belt tied about her full hips, mother Yasoda pulled on the churning rope,…”

One can argue that in both these examples the word “sari” does not appear in the original Sanskrit verses. It is ‘vastra’ or ‘usat-dukula’ or ‘ambara’ etc. But if Srila Prabhupada chooses to translate that as ’sari’ why should we not accept that?

Again, we find in Caitanya Caritamrita Madhya 8.166 these comments by Srila Prabhupada about Radharani wearing a sari:

“This description (found in verses 165–181) is based on a book by Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami known as Premambhoja-maranda. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura’s translation of the original Sanskrit reads as follows: … She sleeps in Her room with the aroma of pride, and when She lies down in Her bed, the transcendental variety of Her loving ecstasies is like a jeweled locket in the midst of Her necklace of separation. Her transcendental breasts are covered by Her sari in the form of affection and anger toward Krsna. … ”

Madhya 8.168 “After Her midday bath, Radharani takes another bath in the nectar of bodily luster, and She puts on the garment of shyness, which is Her black silk sari. PURPORT Over and above the other baths, the bath taken in the afternoon is taken in the nectar of full beauty. This nectar represents the personal qualities of beauty and luster. Thus there are three baths in different kinds of water. Radharani then puts on two garments — a lower and an upper garment. The upper garment is pinkish and is Her affection and attraction for Krsna, and the lower garment, a blackish silk sari, is Her shyness.”

Madhya 14.195 TRANSLATION “When Krsna comes forward and greedily snatches at the border of Her sari, Srimati Radharani is actually very pleased within, but still She tries to stop Him.”

Similarly, King Prthu, an incarnation of God, is described by Srila Prabhupada as wearing a dhoti, although the Sanskrit term in the verse is a little different:

SB 4.21.17 dukula-agrye — dressed with a dhoti; TRANSLATION “The black, slick hair on his head was very fine and curly, and his neck, like a conchshell, was decorated with auspicious lines. He wore a very valuable dhoti, and there was a nice wrapper on the upper part of his body.”

In all the paintings done by our ISKCON art department, Lord Visnu is depicted as wearing a yellow dhoti. Again the Sanskrit usually says ‘pita-ambara’ ‘yellow dress or garment’ but this is depicted as a dhoti. Why? Because Srila Prabhupada instructed the artists to show it that way. Srila Prabhupada personally supervised the paintings, down to small details. If he chose to show Lord Visnu in a yellow dhoti, how can we argue that a dhoti is not a spiritual dress?

You have said that some have mentioned BG Sharma’s paintings as a reference point. I don’t know BG Sharma, and I don’t know what his reference points are for doing his paintings. I personally doubt that he has personally witnessed the activities of Krsna and His associates in Goloka firsthand, but I might be wrong.

But I would have to ask why Goloka is being used as the reference point? A better reference, in the context of our preaching, is certainly Lord Caitanya and His associates. We are after all a branch of the Gaudiya Vaisnava movement. Before Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s appearance, there was no Hare Krishna Movement as such. We are acting under the orders of Sri Caitanya and his associates. They are our immediate exemplars and our immediate reference point. Our identity is as the followers of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, at least as much as it is as devotees of Sri Sri Radha and Krishna. As far as I know, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and His followers all wore dhotis and saris. In the section of Goloka in which Lord Caitanya’s pastimes are manifest, do They wear saris and dhotis? If that dress was good enough for Them, why is it not good enough for us?

You say that others have said that in the early days of ISKCON Srila Prabhupada did not insist on his followers wearing Vaisnava dress (dhotis and saris). Its true that he did not specifically introduce the dress as a requirement and there are quite a few references for that which, to save space, I will not cite here. However, once his followers adopted it, his mood was to enthusiastically endorse it, to the point of sometimes criticising disciples who did not wear it.

A primary example was Kirtanananda Swami. Just after taking sannyasa in 1967 he returned from India to America and began telling all the devotees not to wear Vaisnava robes nor shave their heads and keep a sikha. He had his rationale for this, saying that the robes and sikha would put people off and hamper our preaching work.

A devotee called Damodar wrote to Srila Prabhupada and asked him for his opinion. Prabhupada replied on October 13 from Calcutta [note: ‘flag’ here means sikha]:

My Dear Damodara, Please accept my blessings. I am in due receipt of your letter of Oct. 9. I am very sorry to hear that Kirtanananda is advising you to give up the robes and the flags on the head. Please stop this nescience as I never instructed Kirtanananda to act like that. I am not at all satisfied with this action of Kirtanananda. Kirtanananda has no right to instruct you in that way, without consulting me. People are being attracted to the chanting of Hare Krishna & not to Kirtanananda’s devices. Kirtanananda suggested to me when he was here that the Americans do not like the robes & flag. I told him personally if you think that Americans in great numbers will follow you, simply for not having robes & flag, I therefore advised him to drop for a few days in London & test this theory. But he has gone directly to N. Y. & is now causing these disturbances without consulting me. I have not sanctioned these methods. In my opinion, Clean shaved Brahmacharies & Grhasthas in saffron robes look like angels from Baikunta. Translation of prayers into English is good & if somebody dresses like nice American gentleman without any robes, I have no objection; but every one of my disciples must have the flag & marks of tilak on forehead. This is essential. Besides that, nobody should do anything without my sanction. I am very sorry to hear Kirtanananda, without doing anything practical, changes his ideas constantly. He was first man in our society to take the robes, shave cleanly, & take flag & now he is changing his position. You have asked me to tell you whether you are right or carry on by the following the foolish advice of Kirtanananda, & I say straight that Kirtanananda is wrong and you are right when you say that the movement will come to nothing if I am not satisfied with your actions.”

Here we see that within only one year of the formation of ISKCON Srila Prabhupada is strongly endorsing the wearing of robes, although he does not object if someone wants to dress like an American gentleman. But tilak and sikha are essential.

Sometimes when outsiders would criticise his disciples for wearing ‘Indian clothes’ Srila Prabhupada would defend them, as he did in a conversation with a priest on June 9 1974 in Paris, France:

Priest: Why do you dress in that way which is an Indian way and not the European way? …..
Prabhupada: I have not said that you dress like that. You like, you do it. Did I say that you do it?
Priest: It’s like the Indian Catholic priest dressing like a (indistinct) priest or like a European priest. I mean, they look as if they had a disguise with them.
Prabhupada: No, no, just like when the English were ruling, English national. So the Englishmen never said that “You dress like Englishmen,” but they automatically dressed. You know very well. They do like that. The Englishmen, they went there to get some money by trade, by politics. But they never went there to change their dress. But they thought that “If I dress myself like Englishman, I will be more honored.” That is their point. Similarly, we never preach that “You dress like this.” But the student, they like this dress. That’s all right. What is the wrong there?
Priest: It’s not wrong. It’s funny.
Prabhupada: Rather these girls, when they dress in Indian way, they look more beautiful. That you will have to admit. Yes. The same girl will dress in your…
Priest: (indistinct)
Prabhupada: So the girls, the women, they like to be more beautiful. So if by dressing in other way they look beautiful, why should you ask them not to do it?
Priest: Maybe for ladies and girls certainly, but for the dhoti and…
Prabhupada: But we are not concerned with the dress, we are concerned with the advancement of spiritual understanding, that’s all.”

So Srila Prabhupada’s preference was to support the wearing of dhotis and saris by his disciples. He wasn’t absolutely insistent on it, but it was a preaching consideration. We want to advertise that we are persons who can be approached for information on spiritual life. It was often explained to others that such dress was spiritual, and just as a policeman can be distinguished from ordinary persons by his dress, similarly a devotee can be distinguished from a karmi by his dress. If a priest can dress in a particular way, why not a devotee? Generally it is an advantage for one who wants to preach.

Sometimes by circumstance wearing a dhoti and shaved head might be a problem, so Srila Prabhupada would advise to dress ‘like a gentleman’ as he did with the Bhaktivedanta Institute scientists, or the devotees who were preaching in communist countries.

And in a conversation on a train to Allahabad, in which Ramesvara Swami was discussing devotees forming a popular music group with the intention of performing to live audiences, Ramesara stated that the group members would not be able to wear dhotis. Srila Prabhupada had no objection:

Ramesvara: No. I’m just saying that it is a little difficult if they wear their dhoti.
Prabhupada: No, dhoti, I don’t say. You have nice coat-pant. I don’t say that you have to… I never said that. You have adopted it. (laughs) I never said that “You put on dhoti.”

However, he added the caveat: “But those who are sannyasis, brahmacaris, their dress is different. But it doesn’t require that one has to become a sannyasi.”

In other words, he wanted brahmacaris and sannyasis to uphold the dhoti and shaved head standard. When Adi Kesava Swami came to see him in Mayapur during February 1977 to discuss the New York court case, it came to Srila Prabhupada’s attention that they were going to the court dressed in karmi clothes. Srila Prabhupada didn’t like that. He advised Adi Kesava to keep his sannyasi dress because he was representing ISKCON, a religious body:

February 18, 1977, Mayapura

Prabhupada: [break] And now don’t go to the court with any other dress. Preach like this. Preach there with this dress. Have they any objection with this dress [as a sannyasi]?
Hari-sauri: In this dress.
Adi-kesava: I agree. I think it is very good that they see us dressed like this in court.
Prabhupada: Yes, we should…
Adi-kesava: They will understand what we are.
Prabhupada: We shall…
Hari-sauri: We have to represent our religion properly.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: A priest will not put on a suit.
Adi-kesava: In fact one time… Even the last time I went…
Prabhupada: No, whatever is done, done. Now you make a difference. In any case, we shall go in this dress.
Hari-sauri: Tell Ramesvara that, too.

Srila Prabhupada added a humorous footnote to his request to Adi Kesava by citing his own experience when he first went to America:

Prabhupada: They requested me to change the dress. I have… The Ramakrishna Mission, that “Unless you dress yourself…” “I have no money. You give me three dress for public.(?) Then I shall do it. I know how to dress. In my business life I was dressing like that, but now I have no money. You give me money.” (laughter) I told them that. (laughs) “I know how to dress like a gentleman. Every day it must be changed, must be nicely ironed. But I have no money. You need not required to teach me. I know how to dress like an European gentleman. And I have no money.” [break] … coat, same pant, same hat — I do not like that. If I dress like a European, I must change daily. Do they not? A respectable European?
Tamala Krsna: Oh, every day.
Prabhupada: Yes, morning and evening.
Tamala Krsna: Just like a Deity.
Prabhupada: Yes. “So I know that, but I have no money.” I replied to that Mr. Mukerjee. He lives near that University, Columbus? Columbia? He’s a teacher there. So he came to see me in the 100th Street West, and he requested me, “Swamiji, if you move in this dress, nobody will respect you.” “It doesn’t matter.”

So Srila Prabhupada never compromised on his Vaisnava dress and he liked it when we didn’t either.

Quite apart from the preaching value we get from dressing as devotees, and the impact it has on the consciousness of others, there is also the question of our own consciousness. As I mentioned at the begining, if we are in full transcendental consciousness then our external trappings will not affect us. However, if we are not fully on that platform, our associations will have a definite effect.

By association, I don’t mean just other people. We tend to associate ourselves with our bodies. Our bodies mean our gender, our country, our social standing etc. Thus even our way of dressing can reflect our bodily associations. Because we tend to identify ourselves with a certain class of person, we show this by dressing, talking and acting like them. We see this prominently in younger people, in the way they take up certain fashions of hair style, clothing, speech etc.

Therefore Srila Prabhupada was very cautious about allowing devotees to go back to wearing karmi clothes because he knew it would affect our consciousness:

May 29, 1977 - Vrndavana room conversation [note: I had just arrived and Srila Prabhupada saw that I had a short growth of hair. He had also noted Bhagavat das was growing out his hair.]

Prabhupada: [break] … keep hair. Look very beautiful by keeping hair. What is that explanation?
Bhagavat: I was advised that because I was going to the European countries for preaching for some time, that it would be required to keep these hairs.
Prabhupada: But they, they, they owned victory with the court [NY] by keeping shaven hair.
Hari-sauri: They won a victory in the court by keeping a shaved head.
Bhagavat: I asked their advice, whether I should shave or keep the hair.
Prabhupada: Who is that nonsense advice? Who is that rascal? “Advice.” By keeping hair you become beautiful and become victimized. “Advice.” This is… Without advice, this mentality is going on outside, to keep hair. We are known as shaven hair, whole society.
Hari-sauri: I’ve been shaving my head once every month. It’s just about three weeks since I’ve…
Prabhupada: Every fortnight. At least. Before going to Europe, six years ago, you were keeping hair: “I have to go to Europe.” That I have seen. Everywhere. Those who… You like to keep hair. That hippie mentality is going on. That’s right. That is good, very intelligent reasoning, actual, long hair by keeping…(?) Everyone is giving some advice. Gurudasa is giving. “He’s keeping. He’s…” Gargamuni. Everyone has some explanation. I do not know how you can give up this hippie mentality. Hippie. Lavanyam kesa-dharanam. Kali-yuga. Victim of Kali-yuga. It is… It is not yet whole, but weak men, victimized by Kali-yuga… There are so many things to victimize over the living entities in Kali-yuga, and one of the item is that he will take that “I have become very, very beautiful, attractive by keeping long hair.” Kesa. That is already stated there. You are victimized by that Kali-yuga. That’s all. No explaining. Our trademark is clean-shaven. We are known as shaven hair. Why you should be victimized? You are known as shaven hair. Are you not? Hm? They say that “Hare Krsna people, shaven hair”?
Hari-sauri: Shaven-headed.
Prabhupada: Shaven hair. So why you should be victimized by keeping hair? What victory you will gain? Conquer over the whole world, Roman Empire, by keeping hair? Hippie mentality, that’s all. That is within the core of the heart. As soon as get some opportunity… Just like during summer season the field appears to be dried up. And as soon as there is some rain, oh, it is green, immediately green. So things are already there. Hm? Is it not?
Hari-sauri: Yes.
Prabhupada: Now you see to the field. They’re all dry. But as soon as there will be rain in the village, all green. So the seeds are there, hippie seeds. As soon as there is some opportunity, come out, green: “Yes, I am beautiful. Come on.” But in the court room they never addressed. Judge never asked that “Why you are shaven-headed?” Was there any question like that?
Hari-sauri: Actually, when he first went to court, they were wondering why he had hair.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Hari-sauri: When Adi-kesava went to court the first time…
Prabhupada: Yes. Hari-sauri: … he had suit and hair, and they wondered why he was dressed like that.
Prabhupada: Yes. Then cheater. Hari-sauri: Yeah, they accused… Prabhupada: That means, of course, indirectly hinted that “Now you are cheating. You are known as shaven-headed. Now you have kept hair. What is the purpose except cheating?”

Here it is very plainly stated by Srila Prabhupada that the tendency to keep hair, and by implication, revert back to karmi dress etc. is actually due to our conditioning, not for some transcendental purpose. Because we identify with our bodies, and with the time, place and circumstance that we live in, therefore we feel embaressed to dress as devotees. In the above example, Srila Prabhupada says this tendency is due to ‘hippie seeds’ within the heart which ‘come up green’ at the first opportunity.

Of course, as I have pointed out above, there are circumstances when it may be advantageous to not appear immediately as devotees. As a conclusion to the discussion on ‘hippie seeds’ I pointed out to Srila Prabhupada that our book distributors were increasing their sales due to wearing ordinary karmi clothes:

Hari-sauri: On sankirtana all the distributors wear wigs and like that to…, because it’s much easier to distribute, to distribute books.
Prabhupada: I do not know all this. Formerly, shaven-headed, they used to distribute. Now it is not possible.
Hari-sauri: It’s increased since they did plainclothes distribution.
Prabhupada: Encourages?
Hari-sauri: Yeah. The distribution has increased.
Prabhupada: Then why don’t you dress like European, half foreign dress and half hair? Who is that foreign and European and gentleman? What is the use of wig? Keep regular gentleman’s hair. There is no need of saffron dress. If by ordinary dress you can sell more book, there is no need of saffron dress.”

Such preaching considerations aside, one wonders what the real motivation is for arguing against the wearing of dhotis and saris, and keeping shaven heads (although nowadays it has become a fashion among some of the men to keep a shaved head but without a sikha). If such things help us to identify ourselves as devotees, why should we reject them?

Especially in the temple setting-you have mentioned cooking in the kitchen-there is no reason for not wearing ‘devotional clothes’ because such outer dress definitely helps us to identify internally with Krsna. Therefore it should not be rejected.

Psychologically, we need to make external adjustments in order to change our consciousness to a devotional one, because by and large, our consciousness is generally externalized. It is absorbed in the external and therefore we need to also adjust our external condition in order to begin cleansing our hearts i. e. decreasing our attachment to the external settings. Our external appearance and behavior will, in general, reflect the condition of our hearts. If we want to wear current karmi fashions, it is surely a reflection of an identification with that social clime. Similarly, if we want to wear dhoti or sari, it is because of a desire to identify with the spiritual.

On the whole, I find that the tendency to reject what have long been ISKCON standards is just another sign of slippage. As time goes on, standards slacken and rationale is found for abandoning non-essential but nevertheless important cultural and social supports for our devotional lives. ‘Hippie seeds’ as Srila Prabhupada said, or just plain ‘karmic seeds’ coming up green.

One final observation. There are some persons who are expert at deconstruction. By clever word play they can minimize to non-existence even the Personality of Godhead. By argument we can minimize our practices and standards but if these things are meant to help us sustain our devotional lives, we may end up with nothing. Or as mayavadis.

Your humble servant, Hari-sauri dasa

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http://bhakti-lodz.info/forum/index.php - tu znajdziecie info o tym, co się dzieje w łódzkim nama-hatta.
http://mamatrojki.blogspot.com/ - a tu trochę o naszej rodzince.

Dobre tematy warto odgrzewac tylko szkoda ze dla analfabetow anglojezycznych nie po polsku:-)

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W tym wieku kłótni i hipokryzjiNiema innej drogi niema innej drogi niema innej drogi ,jak Intonowanie swietych imion Pana.Hare Kryszna i Rama:-)

Nie widze zadnego zwiazku miedzy kultura za swiata duchowego a przebieranie sie w hinduskie szaty. Przebieranie sie w ogulnie przyjete w danym srodowisku uniformy jest zjawiskiem czysto socjologicznym. Jak myslicie dlaczego Kapitan Kloss ubieral sie w niemiecki mundur wermahtu. Polecam tez obejzec poczatek filmu "Lista Shindlera". I odpowiedzcie sobie na pytanie czy mantrowanie maha mantry lub sprzedawanie ksiazek w stroju kominiarza cos zmieni i co zmieni...i jaka jest wtedy roznica

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http://www.rafael108.webs.com

Związek istnieje, ale żeby go zauważyć trzeba mieć najpierw osobiste, głębokie doświadczenie tej kultury, które wykształci w nas zdolność obserwacji i odseparowania tego co hinduskie od tego co wieczne.

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Może słabo przeanalizowałeś ten punkt i przebierałeś się cały czas z przyzwyczajenia.Pierwsza sprawa doti nie jest hinduskim strojem narodowym, sa to szaty liturgiczne do czczenia Najwyzszego Pana w tradycji Waisznawa i nie tylko. Ktoś może zadać pytanie dlaczego akurat tak ma wyglądać stój do czczenia Pana, a nie tak jak Adveita zasugerował strój kominiarza.

Wiele razy zostało to wspomniane w powyższym wątku że priorytetem noszenia doti podczas czynności liturgicznych jest fakt że jest to najłatwiejsze ubranie do utrzymania czystość ( jest to jeden kawałek materiału wiec po wypraniu czyste jest całe żaden brud nie schowa się w szyciach tego ubrania) trudniej jest z utrzymaniem czystości w ubraniu kominiarza



Do pewnego stopnia masz racje, ale ja bym nie uproszczał tego aż tak radykalnie. Przebieranie się w strój Waisznawa podczas uroczystosci Waisznawa ma wiele znaczeń.

1. Szacunek ( jak idziesz do prezydenta to raczej nie ubierasz się jak szmaciarz bo cie nie wpuszczą, co tam do prezydenta do Filharmonii cie nawet nie wpuszcza w bojówkach od razu mówię że jestem fanem bojówek, bardziej niz garnituru )

2. Aspekt może trochę bardziej subiektywny ale dla mnie bardzo istotny. Często to co na zewnątrz to wewnątrz, przebieram się bo dzięki temu czuje większa motywacej do tego co robię, bo strój jest własciwy do czasu miejsca i okolicznosci.

Rzadko który sprinter używa do biegania gumofilców żeby podkreślić tym własna indywidualność...

3. Zadowolić Kryszne można na rożne sposoby, pokazując mu ze zależny nam na tyle na nim ze można zrobić ten wysiłek by się przebrać, ale to już indywidualna kwestia i do tego zrozumienia i punktu powinno się dojść samemu bez żadnych krzywych wkrętów z cyklu: "... nie przebierasz sie ? to jesteś w maji ?" na mnie takie teksty zawsze działały jak płachta na byka...taka nie pokorna natura...




z tego co słyszałem od rożnych pań to ubierał się tak dla tego ze wyglądał w nim przystojnie



Jak spróbujesz to daj znać o swoich realizacjach może gdzieś po drodze w nasze sukcesji uczniów ktos coś źle przekazał i chodziło właśnie o strój kominiarza . Który uznawany jest przez tak wielu za symbol szczęścia i wtedy hasło powinno brzemic: "... przebierz się w strój kominiarza mantruj Hare Kryszna i bądź szczęśliwy dając szczęście innym to jest tez jakiś tam pomysł umysł człowieka rożnymi ścieżkami podażą

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"...jesli chcesz zbudowac statek, nie każ ludziom zbierać drewna, ale obudź w nich tesknotę za Oceanem.."

Widze ze Temat ciągle goracy

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W tym wieku kłótni i hipokryzjiNiema innej drogi niema innej drogi niema innej drogi ,jak Intonowanie swietych imion Pana.Hare Kryszna i Rama:-)

sory ale pomimo waszego wysilku nadal nie widze zadnego zwiazku miedzy duchowoscia a ubraniem. ubieranie sie w doti i malowanie tilaka na czole nie wywoluje w czarodziejski sposob pokory i tolerancji i wspolczucia. przynajmniej taka jest moja realizacja. ubieranie sie w np. w doti jest po prostu mile widziane w tym srodowisku, neofita szybciej zdobedzie w ten sposob akceptacje jesli przypodoba sie pozostalym czlonkom grupy. latwiej sie wowczas zintegrowac ale tylko w obrebie danego srodowiska uznajacego akurat te okreslone zasady, natomiast nie pomaga a nawet przeszkadza integrowac sie z pozostala czescia spoleczenstwa w ktorym na codzien zyjemy. zdolnosc do szybkiego i latwego dostosowywanai sie do okreslonego srodowiska jest rzeczywiscie pewnym aspektem i symptomem rozwoju. mysle ze jesli chce sie lepiej trafic do ludzi nalezy wygladac tak jak oni i mowic ich jezykiem. stosowanie specyficznego, tylko przez siebie zrozumialego zargonu i zwrotow (mam na mysli nagminnie stosowane sanskryckie tajajemnicze slowa lub cytaty, ktorych wiekszosc po prostu nie rozumie i nawet nie zada sobie trudu aby sprubowac zrozumiec) albo ostentacujnie odmienny wyglad wzbudza raczej nieufnosc. jesli wejdziesz miedzy wrony musisz krakac jak i one, nawet jesli chcesz wykrakac machamantre to kracz ja miedzy wronami i wygladaj jak wrona, bedzie to bardziej skuteczne.

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http://www.rafael108.webs.com

Z tą różnicą, że to "krakanie", jeżeli robione z czystym sercem, zrozumieniem i szczerym zaangażowaniem przynosi w konsekwencji Kryszna-premę. Ubiór jest częścią kultury Wajsznawów. Jednak, aby docenić tą kulturę trzeba ją samemu praktykować i tym samym zyskać do niej wyższy smak. Ta kultura jest sprzyjająca służbie oddania i dlatego szczere i poważne osoby ją przyjmują i stosują w życiu. Niewiedza na temat tej kultury lub brak zainteresowania nią jest symptomem naszego uwarunkowania materialnego, ale jak wszystko inne może zostać wykorzeniona poprzez właściwe towarzystwo, edukację i praktykę. Jednak nie mając doświadczenia tej kultury i samemu jej nie praktykując nie powinniśmy w ogóle wypowiadać się na jej temat. Zostawmy to ekspertom mającym wiedzę i co najważniejsze osobiste, praktyczne doświadczenie tej kultury w ich życiu.

Ja podobnie jak i Ty, nie mam smaku do tej kultury, ani też wiedzy i zrozumienia panczaratry i varnaśrama-dharmy i dlatego w domu nie chodzę w dhoti. Nie czuję się w nim wygodnie, aczkolwiek w Indiach jest to nawet i dla mnie bardzo praktyczny ubiór. Nie staram się jednak na bazie mojego niższego smaku i cielesnych preferencji budować filozofii, która podważałaby tą kulturę czy pozytywny wpływ noszenia dhoti na sadhanę innych wielbicieli. Po prostu niewiele o tym wiem i być może w przyszłości będę w stanie rozwinąć zainteresowanie tą kulturą i sam zacząć ją praktykować, gdyż religia to kultura, a filozofia bez religii to jedynie umysłowa spekulacja.

Co do nieufności w stosunku do wyglądu, ubioru i sanskrytu, to moje osobiste doświadczenie, jak zresztą i wielu innych bhaktów, których znam jest zupełnie odwrotne. Te rzeczy nas przyciągnęły do świadomości Kryszny i nadal przyciągają.

Jeżeli masz problem z terminologią wedyjską, to jedyną rzeczą, którą można by Ci doradzić to podjęcie systematycznej samo-edukacji. Ucząc się, kontemplując te nauki i stosując je w życiu, terminologia i znaczenie wersetów staje się integralną częścią naszego życia. Nasza własna ignorancja, niewiedza i brak pragnienia robienia postępu w tej wiedzy, nie powinna być wymówką, aby krytykować tych, którzy mają pragnienie, aby taki postęp czynić.

Nawet w zwyczajnej szkole, to raczej uczeń, który wielokrotnie "kibluje" w tej samej klasie i nie robi postępu w nauce jest napiętnowany presją rodzinno-społeczną, jeżeli jego kłopoty z nauką są spowodowane lenistwem, pogardą dla norm społecznych, czy np. tendencjami przestępczymi. Jak długo można mówić do uczęszczającego przez lata do tej samej szkoły 15-latka językiem 1-klasisty na tematy związane z nauką alfabetu i nauką czytania? Podobnie, jak długo można mówić do wieloletniego bhakty językiem "programów otwartych" bez pragnienia pogłębienia i rozszerzenia wiedzy i realizacji na temat bhakti?

Zanim wykorzystamy nasze "demokratyczne prawo" do krytykowania czegoś, na czym w ogóle się nie znamy, pomyślmy najpierw o naszych obowiązkach i ciążącej na nas odpowiedzialności za nasze własne duchowe życie i dobro.

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Prasadam blog mojej żony Vairagya-laksmi dd: http://www.purevege.com/
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Moja muzyka: http://www.acidplanet.com/artist.asp?so ... 069&T=6461

Cytat z rozdziału 2 "Jaiva-dharmy" Śrila Bhaktivinoda Thakura:

"At this point, Sannyasi Thakura, speaking very respectfully, said, "Dear master! Now I am fully convinced that this mayavada philosophy is indeed false and inept. By your mercy, all my doubts have been dissipated and I am feeling a strong urge to instantly discard my mayavadi sannyasi apparel."

Babaji Maharaja, "Dear sir! My advice in this regard is that one should be dispassionate about one's outer dress -- towards it practice neither attachment, nor hate. When the heart and consciousness become purified from within, the outer garments are also automatically rectified. When too much stress is laid on dress codes and grooming external looks, then disciplining the consciousness within is neglected. My opinion is that after inner cleansing, one is naturally inspired to conduct oneself in accordance with the behaviour of saintly devotees, and thus one's outward appearance -- dress and so on -- will be freed from blemishes in the natural course of events. Just surrender completely to the ideals of Sri Caitanya and then whatever external activities are inspired in you will be executed with proper consciousness. Always remember the following instruction of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu in the Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya-lila, 16.238–9:

markata-vairagya na kara loka dekhana
yatha-yogya visaya bhunja' anasakta hana
antare nistha kara, bahye loka-vyaahara
acirat krsna tomaya karibe uddhara

"‘You should not make yourself into a show-bottle devotee and become a false renunciant. For the time being, enjoy the material world in a befitting way, but do not become attached to such enjoyment. Within your heart, you should keep yourself very faithful, but externally you may behave like an ordinary man. Then soon Krsna will be very pleased and deliver you from the clutches of maya.'"

Sannyasi Thakura understood the importance of Babaji Maharaja's words and refrained from further mention of the subject of dress."

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I jeszcze jeden cytat z Jaiva-dharmy, tym razem z rodziału 7:

"Ananta dasa Babaji, "Actually, when all attachments to household life are completely annihilated, the nirapeksa-akincana-bhakta, detached devotee, can stay anywhere, in the forest or in the house. Such an elevated saint purifies the whole world. Sometimes, however, they are seen as bhiksus, saints who live by begging, and so they go around dressed in kaupina, loincloth, and carrying a kantha, a coverlet sown from used and worn-out clothing. When they take the vows of ‘kaupina and kantha,' they do so in the presence of other grha-tyagi bhaktas, in order to fortify their resolve. This is known as vesa, the method of receiving the garb of a mendicant, which admits them to the life of bhiksa, begging. How can there be any objection to accepting vesa in this way?"

Yadava dasa, "Is there a purpose to being recognized as a bhiksu on the basis of one's kaupina and kantha?"

Ananta dasa Babaji, "Once a devotee by wearing kaupina and kantha is seen by the world as a bhiksu, then his relatives and family members will disown him very easily and thus he, in turn, will reject any thought of going back home. A natural attraction for detachment as well as repulsion for the company of materialistic people will consume him. The experienced grha-tyagi devotee with a seasoned sense of detachment may not require a change of dress. However for some receiving vesa does help. Elevated devotees who display the following characteristics do not need to accept vesa, as stated in the Srimad Bhagavatam, 4.29.46:

yada yasyanugrhnati
bhagavan atma-bhavitah
sa jahati matim loke
vede ca parinisthitam

"‘When a person is fully engaged in devotional service, he is favoured by the Lord, who bestows His causeless mercy. At such a time, the awakened devotee gives up all material activities and ritualistic performances mentioned in the Vedas. His only concern is the real need of humanity.'
"There is no injunction for these awakened devotees to outwardly accept the garb of detachment. However as a matter of public consideration such acceptance may sometimes be taken as necessary."

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